I was really intrigued by this discussion, because I have often entertained similar suspicions about whether it might be that a lot of people don't really believe what they claim to believe. At the risk of causing serious offense to someone, somewhere, I will say that my own observations of many of those who identify as Episcopalians have especially provided fodder for these questions, in my own mind... After all, there are many advantages to being seen as a member of a church or synagogue, mosque, or temple (etc.). People who are in business, and in politics (!), are well aware of this factor. There is also the very significant matter of social support; it has been reported that people who are active members of their churches are, overall, healthier than those who are not. Human beings need community and affiliation, and they will put up with a lot of aggravation, and discomfort of various kinds, in order to get and keep it. They also need meaning, and they need hope; and an ideology and community that will serve as a container, or placekeeper, for those qualities can provide psychic support, even in the face of (acknowledged or unacknowledged) cognitive dissonance and doubt.
Here is an excerpt from what the "Frame Problem" blogger had to say about all this:
"Given the social pressures of religious communities and the fear of ostracism, I figure that there is probably a significant minority of fakers among the faithful. That they are all so afraid to 'come out'—and quite understandably so—they generally do not know about each other. Since most members of religious communities and of North American society are genuinely faithful (and the doubtful ones generally keep their lips buttoned), social pressures at the level of the religious community and society as a whole make it socially risky to openly criticize religion.
"I think that an important step toward making people more willing to question their faith is the provision of other options for community and the pursuit of happiness and meaning. I would like to eventually help build a community which embraces many of the positive aspects of religion (e.g. supportive community, teaching love and kindness, providing a social forum for the development of wisdom and wellbeing) but which does away with the dogmatism and replaces it with open-minded skepticism and curiosity and intellectual honesty. I would like to see many of the wise developments in buddhist philosophy and practice... such as mindfulness meditation, teachings [about] the danger of investing oneself in externals (e.g., beliefs, possessions, status, others)... And of course, there would be community building activities such as social events, charity work, group projects, support groups and so on."
I happen to be a long-term doubter, and a generally skeptical person, myself (for one thing, I am doubtful about how much I might want to affiliate with a group that includes some of the truly obnoxious atheists who are now so very prominent). And I can report that my own attempts to openly talk about questions and doubts have seldom been received comfortably by other members of churches I have belonged to. I have long admired my many dear friends who are religious, especially within the Catholic Church. I know (and have known) so many smart, well-educated, thoughtful Catholic people, ordained or otherwise, and I have tried to figure out how they manage to hold on to what appears to be strong faith/belief in a creed and set of dogmatic (required) beliefs that are amazingly difficult to really believe... In many cases, I know that their actual believing involves a series of re-workings of the literal and superficial meanings of language and stories that are better understood as metaphoric, and as representing (at best) expressions and examples of how things really are, aimed at understanding the ultimate nature of reality. But I know, from personal experience, that this re-working requires a lot of mental energy, and, really (I have to ask): To what end?
Could it be that, for many, it simply is easier to stick with the community, and friends, and family that you have been part of, for many years, maybe for all your life... than to break rank?


Belief is not always explainable, something I believe far too many "educated" individuals attempt to do with complete failure. How can one explain how God created everything? It is beyond our understanding in this mortal and flawed state.
ReplyDeleteFaith is not quantifiable, how can it be? Faith has two main parts, the ascent of the believer, and the presence of the Spirit. One mortal, one beyond time and space. One measurable, one, well you get the picture. It is this presence of the Holy Spirit that allows one to see beyond the words and get into the source of the story. Grace, sanctifying and actual, very real and necessary to one who accepts Faith.
Trying to place a subjective individualistic interpretation onto God, the Church, and Scripture belittles them to a sitcom reality. Don't believe me, just look at the 30 some thousand protestant sects sometime (you can also include Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam any religion will do, they all have their reforms and splinters).
These must believe dogmas are not so hard to believe, they give a freedom that most people could only dream about. We can argue all day how things were supposedly changed by this group or that person, but honestly, if that is the truth than nothing can be trusted that has not been witnessed by the individual, right? Reality is not what we want it to be, that is dangerous path to attempt, one I am sure you have professional experience witnessing.
Mankind cannot save himself, but mankind can be saved, if only he would stop damning himself.
OK, Craig, I'm not sure whether you mean that "belief" (as in "the act of believing") is not explainable, or that the content of various religious beliefs are not explainable. If the latter, then I would have to comment that the fact that they are "not explainable" does not make them more believable.
ReplyDeleteFaith is not quantifiable? Well, I suppose we could develop a scale with which to quantify it, but I don't have any interest in doing that. As to the "ascent of the believer," I admit that I just don't understand what you mean by that.
I also fail to understand what sort of "freedom" comes from endorsing (i.e., saying that you believe in the truth of) various dogmas. But, even more fundamentally (in the sense of "prior to"): I have always found that, even if I squeeze my eyes very tightly closed, and try, try, try, I cannot make myself "believe" something that is contrary to my experience, that is without convincing evidentiary support, and that just makes no sense to me.
It seems clear that your own faith and beliefs are of great value to you... and you are not alone in that. But there are many people, I think, who simply cannot arrive at a state of "belief" in the way that you apparently have been able to happily do (even though they may very much wish that they could!).
Craig: I fail to see how you can, on the one hand, say that God's creative process and so forth is not understandable, but to know that *your* God (or any God) is true is.
ReplyDeleteIf you click the link within my post that goes to all the pitfalls of every theist argument that I have ever heard and you can give an argument for your God that falls outside of these traps, you may well be inline for acknowledgement as one of the greatest and most important intellectuals of all time.
Also, regarding freedom from belief, I also do not understand this. Anyone who commits themself to a dogma immediately constrains themself. They will go through rigorous and unbelievable intellectual acrobatics and avoidance in order to preserve their beliefs when rationality will not do. Their belief obligates them to engage in dishonesty to themselves and others and systematic unreason.
ReplyDeleteBeing a rationalist frees one to truly be honest and follow the evidence. On the flip-side, the contraint it comes with is that it necessitates not holding intellectually unjustified beliefs.
Both stances come with contraints, but the latter enables unrestricted honesty and reason, and cognitive consonnance (as opposed to dissonance).